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Tortured logic: Catholic Americans on the basics

Last Updated Wednesday, May 06, 2009 1:39:24 PM


By John Norton

Tortured logic: Catholic Americans on the basics

One of Mark Twain's more memorable quotes is: "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."

Here's hoping that a recent poll by the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life falls in the latter category. It says that Catholic Americans are more likely (51 percent) than the general U.S. population (49 percent) to think it is OK to "often" or "sometimes" use torture on suspected terrorists. And Catholics are a full 4 percentage points ahead of the general population in thinking torture can "often" be justified.

Even without Twain's warning, this poll has to be taken with a grain of salt. First, the pollsters don't define what they mean by torture. Second, the polling sample is small: 742 people total, of whom 122 were white, non-Hispanic Catholics.

But the disturbing fact remains that a majority of those Catholics support the use of "torture," whatever they understand it to mean.

This despite the fact that one of our Catholic faith's fundamental moral principles is that the end never justifies the means.

The Vatican's 2004 "Compendium of the Social Doctrine of the Church" specifically rules out torture: "In carrying out investigations, the regulation against the use of torture, even in the case of serious crimes, must be strictly observed: "Christ's disciple refuses every recourse to such methods, which nothing could justify and in which the dignity of man is as much debased in his torturer as in the torturer's victim" [quoting a 1982 address of Pope John Paul II to the International Committee of the Red Cross].

It continues: "International juridical instruments concerning human rights correctly indicate a prohibition against torture as a principle which cannot be contravened under any circumstance."

So how do you explain the poll results? Lack of catechesis (confirmed by other polls of Catholics on moral issues like abortion and embryonic stem-cell research)? Blind allegiance to the Republican Party (though a majority of Catholics voted for President Barack Obama)? Cultural influences like the generally positive portrayal of torture in television shows like "24"?

Let me know what you think. Write to the address below, e-mail feedback@osv.com, or, even better for the purposes of participating in a conversation, leave your comments to this column at our website, www.osv.com (navigate to "OSV Newsweekly May 17, 2009").

* * *

Almost exactly a year ago, in our May 11 issue, I wrote about some Catholic neighbors with kids about the same age as ours, including a girl who was suffering from Tay Sachs disease. I am sorry to report that little 5-year-old Rachel has died. Please pray for her family, and for all those who have lost a child.

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Recent Comments
I believe that the poll is probably correct, and that most US Catholics - like most Americans - are really fascists in their political values. They believe in the supremacy of American military might, and that violence is justified always in support of America's interests. They believe that violence is justified in maintaining the interests of the wealthy against the poor, for example, against immigrants and to maintain America's supplies of oil and other materials. Many so-called "Conservative" Catholics dismiss what the Pope has to say on this, and support the viewpoint of American Neoconservatives. In reality, they do not worship God, but while invoking the name of Jesus, really worship America, and that is idolatry.
Posted By: James Hynes on Wednesday, May 06, 2009 5:08:20 PM

I wrestled with your question, "What do you think?" In the end, the biggest part of the answer (I think) is inadequate teaching; inadequate catechesis. But what bothered me about the simplicity of that answer was the difference in "caught versus taught" beliefs. Perhaps it contributes little to the discussion, but I worked out my own thinking (as Merton said, "To write is to think, even to pray") here. God's peace.

Posted By: Richard Peck on Wednesday, May 06, 2009 6:04:41 PM
As a reactionary, I think James Hynes is at least half right. I imagine he would label me fascist, but just I don't think all progressives are communists, so not all reactionaries are Nazis. I've always found idolatrous worship of the Pentagon curious. Now of course that is not solved by by replacing it with idolatrous worship of the State Department and the various dehumanizing government entitlement programs. We don't need more democracy and progressivism, we need more rule of law founded in firm Christian principles. The first thing to be rooted out is consequentialism--the wicked belief that the ends justify the means. If you believe that we must survive first and THEN we can be good, congratulations! You are a Machiavellian. If you were aiming for Catholicism however...
Posted By: Scott Waddell on Thursday, May 07, 2009 10:05:20 AM
I suspect the poll is correct. Most Catholics I know believe that justice demands that those who break the law deserve punishment. Add to that the fact that the elite culture has defined torture so broadly that yelling at a captured prisoner is called torture, it is no wonder that many Americans (including Catholics) find it acceptable.
Posted By: John Linge on Thursday, May 07, 2009 11:33:42 AM
John Linge wrote, "Add to that the fact that the elite culture has defined torture so broadly that yelling at a captured prisoner is called torture, it is no wonder that many Americans (including Catholics) find it acceptable." Well, I find "yelling at a captured prisoner" to be acceptable torture.
Posted By: Joe K on Thursday, May 07, 2009 12:07:39 PM
You stated that one of our Catholic "fundamental moral principles is that the end never justifies the means." I agree completely. We cannot use immoral means to achieve the end, no matter how worthy the end is. Dealing in drugs or becoming a prostitute can never be sanctioned just because it provides a living for someone who would otherwise be homeless. And tithing from earnings as a prostitute doesn't make prostitution any more acceptable. Now, about torture . . . Torture of someone to provide pleasure for me is anathema. So is torture of myself to provide pleasure for someone else. Taking pleasure in anyone's torture is represensible. But . . . let's begin by considering different meanings of torture. In many instances, torture is in the eye of the beholder. "Racing in that marathon was pure torture." "Giving up chocolate for Lent was pure torture." Some athiests tell us that any parent who teaches his or her child about God is guilty of torture. Others will tell us that self-discipline as a means of spiritual growth is useless torture. Many more feel that there must be easier ways to grow spiritually than by self-discipline. All too often we shun self-discipline because our materialistic goals lead us to seek the path of least resistance. Could it be that God's will for us includes self-discipline and a bit of self-torture? If we are trying to be children of God, we certainly have an example in His Son, who is our brother. Jesus was a perfect example of self-discipline and self-denial (some would call it torture!) and submission to the will of God. Your quote from the Vatican's 2004 "Compendium of the Social Doctrine of the Church" seems to me to be in the context of investigations outside of war. If the use of force or war to overcome evil can ever be morally acceptable, and if it is morally acceptable to take a life in self defense to save our own, why is it not morally acceptable to save that same life by torture, especially when torture need not end in death?
Posted By: Louis Willet on Tuesday, May 12, 2009 7:52:14 PM
I believe the problem with the results of the recent poll by the Pew Forum is a matter of definition. Torture is generally considered by most people to cause injury to the body or even death. “Waterboarding” used by the CIA on prisoners from Afghanistan and Iraq does none of that, yet it is called torture by many in the media and politics. “Waterboarding” as used in the news media today actually refers to two different interrogation techniques. The first definition used to be called “the water cure” or “water torture” and involves pumping water directly into the stomach. "This creates intense pain. It feels like your organs are on fire," says Darius Rejali, a professor at Reed College in Oregon and author of a new book, Torture and Democracy. This is the technique used by the Japanese during WWII where prisoners lost consciousness and some even died. One solder testified, “I found my consciousness came back again and found Yuki was sitting on my stomach. And then I vomited the water from my stomach… [through] my mouth and all openings of my face... and then Yuki would repeat the same treatment and the same procedure to me until I became unconscious again.” In some of the other Japanese cases, the "water torture" included strapping people to ladders and dunking them face down into swimming pools until they passed out. There are claims that we executed Japanese solders after WWII for waterboarding. One researcher found that not only was no one executed during WWII for waterboarding, no one was even prosecuted for waterboarding. In the International Military Tribunal for the Far East, a.k.a. Tokyo Trials, "only seven Japanese war criminals were executed. Every one of them was convicted of either being complicit in or directly committing atrocities and murder on a grand scale." There were 5 cases where Japanese citizens (one was a Japanese civilian) were prosecuted for torture that INCLUDED as part of the torture charges "water torture." The first problem is they were also charged with much worse things along with "water torture." The second is that the "water torture" that took place then is not the same as CIA "waterboarding." Water torture used in earlier times similarly referred to water being pumped into the stomach. Henry Charles Lea in A History of the Inquisition of Spain writes, "The patient strangled and gasped and suffocated and, at intervals, the toca was withdrawn and he was adjured to tell the truth. The severity of the infliction was measured by the number of jars [of water] consumed, sometimes reaching to six or eight." The second definition of waterboarding is the one the CIA used on captured prisoners after 9/11. When the CIA waterboards people, a rag is placed over the face to PREVENT water from entering the nose and mouth. Prisoners are NOT taken to unconsciousness. Please don’t confuse this with pouring water DIRECTLY into their nose and mouth... a much harsher and dangerous act; this is not the same as waterboarding.
Posted By: Don Koza on Thursday, May 14, 2009 2:25:17 AM
Polls are meaningless in gauging how Catholics feel about "torture" because we simply don't know how the question was asked. As a Catholic, I ask myself the following questions: Can a war be considered "just"? Yes. Does the current battle against global terrorism constitute a war? Yes Do captured enemy combatants have an obligation to reveal the truth during interrogation? Yes May interrogators employ non-lethal, non-crippling methods on uncooperative prisoners, guilty of engaging in war against us, in order to obtain this information? Yes. How Will God judge those interrogators? With the same measuring stick as He will with the enemy who started this fight. Call interrogation techniques what you will, they ensure the survival of our nation. And, God willing, our leadership will be "man enough" to continue to use them, when necessary, to protect us.
Posted By: Dan Clegg on Saturday, May 16, 2009 10:01:59 AM
Regarding Catholic's support for the use of torture by interogators of terrorist suspects I have to address two parts to the issue. First off, what is torture? I am in the camp that says there was nothing wrong with the use of the "enhanced techniques" used such as waterboarding. I'm not a military expert, and space limitations prevent a full discussion, but basically if the procedure doesn't lead to significant physical injury, then I'm dis-inclined to view it as torture. I might be presented with some specific case and decide that an interogator crossed the line, but I'm very comfortable supporting the policies of the past administration regarding these enhanced techniques and knowing I have not contridicted Catholic beliefs. Now regarding whether it is ever acceptable to use honest to gosh torture of suspects to obtain information. Charles Krauthammer wrote an article defending its use in extreme situations where innocent lives are at stake. In honesty, if an interogator tortured a suspect, and obtained information that did indeed save innocent lives, I would not object if the interogator received a pardon and a medal. However, I certainly don't believe we should legalize such a policy, because very soon we would become the terrorists.
Posted By: Steve Charles on Saturday, May 23, 2009 11:42:29 PM
I must admit great sadness and dismay at the results of the recent poll by the Pew Forum on Religion and Public life regarding Catholic complicity on torture. How to explain it in the face of clear and unmistable teaching on the subject by the Church. The lack of catehesis cannot be dismissed. The 2004 Vatican Compendium on Catholic Social Teaching has been reported more than once as one of the best kept secrets in the church. At the same time forging a culture of life, which is the design of Catholic Social Teaching is out matched by the culture of violence that consumes our society. Pro life choices likewise is met with a blank stare by those faced with gut wrenching choices. The culture of violence desensitizes many in this country including the devout, to the horrors of "enhanced interrogation methods.
Posted By: Jerry Trageser on Sunday, May 24, 2009 4:34:42 PM
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